What is the best plastic pistol out right now and why?

[Mjolnir]

Great perspective, VG. Much appreciated.

You also have an interesting background.

Overlooking the current Gen3/Gen4 issue for 9mm I usually prefer Glock and M&P and older Sigs. The P30 is "new" to me. In .45 ACP its definitely HK though the Gen4 Model 21 feels very good, too.

Notice a trend yet? 8-)

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

You like .45's?

 

[Leonidas]

Yes, until somebody comes out with a .46.

 

[Pops 1]

How about the PX4? Mine has been 100% reliable, and is very comfortable in my hand.[/Q
UOTE]
+1 The PX4 is the softest shooting pistol that I have ever shoot. Mine has never give me any problems. Pops

 

[CJB1911]

IOP8!

 

[Sin-ster]

Using TT to say that a stardard release is adequate? Seriously? C'mon.

What better depiction could there possibly be? He is the single fastest off the gun, to the mag, out of the pouch, into the well and back on target of anyone you can find on film. WITH the help of race gear-- and you can still see that the drop itself is faster than anything else.

Watch anyone else of a lesser caliber and it's more pronounced. I wish I had a video of myself to use!

It's a different flavor, to be sure. And for some people, it may very well be a faster and more reliable drop. But even if it were truly 2x better than the thumb release, across the whole spectrum of possible end users, it's still a pretty minor concern. And for me at least, it actually borks my grip up even more-- while placing my finger, under stress, dangerously near the trigger.

I do like and respect the LEM, though.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Well said. The slow part of the mag chanfe is getting your body to do 2 seperate and distinct things simultaneously. One hand is dropping the old mag while the other finds and draws the reload. The brain doesn't like working that way. That's why some many shooters do it in phases rather than all at once.

 

[Sin-ster]

Again, compare maintenance schedules. Look at any testing that has been done. Todd Green is a great source but it is a sample of one. Go speak with those who are involved or who are close to those who are involved. I have done A LITTLE BIT of this and I'm wholly convinced.

I'll admit some ignorance here, and ask what a maintenance schedule is and where I might find access to one (or two, as it were)?

I mean, I have an idea-- taking the literal definition. But it raises questions that you typically wouldn't leave unanswered. Whose schedule is it, and what criteria do they base it on? Was it formed from empirical "breakage" evidence, or does it air on the super-safe side of caution?

I'm also curious as to who qualifies as "involved". Operators like the SEALs make sense, although I don't picture Marcinko doing a lot of testing these days-- but I could very easily be wrong! Anyone even remotely attached to Glock or HK would be a questionable source for me, as there's clearly something at stake. It's problematic, no matter how honest or unbiased that person may be.

As far as personal insight, I can only offer a little. I have somewhere in the ballpark of 40k rounds through my G17 (give or take 3k in either direction), with at least double that in dry fire. Most of it has happened in the past 6 months. It's average cleaning schedule is roughly 1k rounds, with detail strips around every 5k (after the first 15k anyway). I've had a grand total of 8 light strikes, thanks to competition spring changes-- all of which have gone away with a competition striker. I've snapped two trigger springs-- both aftermarket "heavies", both after about 10k live fire and the same doubled dry fire. (Interestingly enough, they were on "hammer down and holster" both times-- i.e. empty chambers.) It's eaten dirt from uncleaned mags, digests ProGrip en masse, and has seen everything from 6 consecutive 17 round bill drills to a two day pistol class. It eats 800 rounds on Friday afternoon, 100-125 more that night, 125-150 more at least one Saturday a month, and 125-150 on Sunday. The gun has seen some abuse, and despite the fragile competition parts it boasts, has never given me any trouble worth noting.

As you say, that's one person's experience-- and anecdotal evidence at best. No deserts, no oceans, no swamps for that matter. But it sure has impressed the bloody heck out of me, and I don't even consider wailing on any of my other firearms with such wanton abandon. But if you loan me an HK, I'll give it a go...

In all honesty, I don't much care which one is better engineered or more durable. If the Glock goes 100k rounds without issue, but the HK goes 125k-- that's more than I'd ever shoot through any gun I'm trusting with my life before I gave it an overhaul. No matter which one has the edge, they're both going to have an impressive record!

 

[Sin-ster]

Well said. The slow part of the mag chanfe is getting your body to do 2 seperate and distinct things simultaneously. One hand is dropping the old mag while the other finds and draws the reload. The brain doesn't like working that way. That's why some many shooters do it in phases rather than all at once.

And you know it's a good one when you don't remember it at all! The only way to get the brain to accept it is to make it so natural that it doesn't even bother registering the awkwardness anymore.

Still not where I want to be just yet, but... I'll get there. Some year. Or decade.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Its a hard enough thing to do under stress that one of my factors in selecting weapons is capacity. I want to do whatever I can to mitigate the in fight mag change. Id rather be hiding behind an engine block and not rushing than trying to do it standing in front of someone shooting at me.

 

[Mjolnir]

You like .45's?

Yes, but I'm not one to make a big deal over the caliber of the pistol. You know better than I that if the shooter can get a solid hit that "stopped is stopped" so a smaller package, faster follow and more ammo trumps tradition though I have 1911s and unless they sprout warts I'll not broom them.

 

[Mjolnir]

Sin-ster, if you can ever get to SHOT there are persons there who have done just about everything. Some are just walking around like me, others have gov't plastic cards and some I know from my old friends back in Michigan. It's a small Community, the firearms industry.

Supposedly, according to one contact from GLOCK who then spent time at Steyr moved over to HK where he spent several years before moving to Glock. Of course I asked him about testing, reliability and cost to manufacture as well as which wa "best" to work for. He told me "with no reservation" that he's convinced that HK makes the most rugged and durable pistols in the world, bar none. Also, the cost of HK pistols are a direct function of the "ridiculous" R&D and "insane Testing to insure their product exceeds everyone's concept of durability." I stated that GLOCK definitely does, too, right? His response was "No, not like HK does; not anywhere near the same extent. The QC and QA is mind-numbing stuff."

With so many Quality Checks and gaging during production costs will undoubtedly rise and lower production throughput, too, so their stuff is expensive and relatively low volume. I would guess that their approach for pistol and rifle Development and Production Verification are similar. Well, they got the ergos down with their latest offerings so they should feel pretty good.

If you check Manufacturer Recommended maintenance HK claims 15,000 rounds before respringing compared to 5k (and Todd Green stated that someone confided that Glock was seeking the same with their new recoil system. Add the NY1 trigger return spring and a 4.5 lb connector and I'd say "their ain't much difference between the two" and I'll not ever fire enough rounds to make a difference. Besides, I LIKE shooting not LOVE it sonId probably find something else to do once I reach about 400 rounds per week - about how much I WANT to shoot but I don't have the time to do so and there are other things more important right now.

Bottom line: I'll take a functioning Gen4 Glock 17 or a P30 LEM and be glad I had eiher. Same with the Gen4 Model 21 or HK45. You and I could do MUCH worse.

 

[Mjolnir]

Odd double post.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Reminds me of the old parable about the ant that worked all summer and then had to shoot a bunch of grasshoppers and a tortise. The ants Granny told him it has better to have and not need and if he didnt have anything nice to say he shouldn't say he shouldn't say it. That ant carried 16rds of 9mm and a reload.

 

[SpeedRacer]

The one advantage I will give the HK, they are designed and built to perform in extremely shitty conditions. I mean...literally. I've seen German porn, those people are sick.

 

[olivs260]

Reminds me of the old parable about the ant that worked all summer and then had to shoot a bunch of grasshoppers and a tortise. The ants Granny told him it has better to have and not need and if he didnt have anything nice to say he shouldn't say he shouldn't say it. That ant carried 16rds of 9mm and a reload.

 

[goteron]

This reminds me of the parable of the Horse and the water.

 

[dos gris]

"Capacity", he said. "An eight or nine shot .45 is a two-bad-guy gun.

.

Perhaps logic is gently unnerving your faith.

I adopted this premise a number of years ago. It's basic common sense, and with pack mobs and multiple assailant crime becoming de rigueur, it makes more sense today than it did eight years ago when we first discussed this.

The difference in projectile performance just isn't there, but people still treat fractions of ounces and a tenth of an inch as significant within a relatively massive human body.

Shot placement argument that some make makes great sense on paper...literally, but nowhere else.

 

[CJB1911]

It took 8 pages to go from a gun argument to a caliber argument!

This reminds me of every other thread VG gets involved in...

 

[Sin-ster]

Whole post.

I had the opportunity to go to SHOT this past year, but blew it.

That's the type of source I'd trust, but with always a little reservation at the back of my mind. Nonetheless, it does make sense-- and indeed, I've heard a lot of serious people speak highly of the HK. Thought provoking indeed.

I'm a bit surprised at that maintenance schedule, TBH. Granted, you can feel the spring "loosen up" after a while-- I'd say 5k live rounds through the Glock sounds about right. But it isn't like the thing shuts down, and I'd imagine the HK at 15k is much the same. I wonder why they chose those figures? And at the same time, I always thought the G17 was oversprung as something of a correction for this wear-and-tear, so that it didn't have to be replaced as you started to get less and less tension. Before hand loads and tuning, mine ran absolutely beautifully with a 15#, WELL past the 5k mark. But perhaps function in truly adverse conditions is hindered...

I'm down with that bottom line for sure! Provided I can get the proper trigger time on the P30, of course. I've only shot the LEM maybe 200 times, and it's a different beast than that simple striker fired. Indeed, we could do much worse-- but I feel safe in saying that neither of us ever will.