M-16 VS AK-47.....Again

[Paintball]

yeah but it's hard to find a glock chambered in .44 special

Thus the 10mm!

 

[Grendal]

So is the Winchester 30-30 or the Marlin 30-30 better?

 

[I_FLY_LOW]

Funny thing was what he chose to shoot, at the end of the video...

Now that that is settled, paper, rock, or scissors?

 

[JWG223]

I'll take an AR over an AK any day of the week.

 

[Hitman]

I'll take an AR over an AK any day of the week.

Blasphemy!!

 

[Leonidas]

Crucify him!

 

[Swami]

Notice Gunny shooting the AK at the end!

 

[LA_Huntsman]

Thus the 10mm!

THIS!!!

 

[#1bambam]

I'll take an AR over an AK any day of the week.

Good thing.There arent enough AKs as it is.LOL

 

[sylvest]

does anyone make an AR chambered in 10mm? I know they make em in 458 socom and 50 beowulf but does anyone have the balls to harness the destruction of 10mm to an AR?

 

[JWG223]

Good thing.There arent enough AKs as it is.LOL

What with all the gangs having them it's no wonder. (When I lived in South Texas, the AK-47 was the predominant weapon used by any and all gangs I ever heard of, regarding a long-gun. On the 4th of July, you could hear them all rattling off all over town with either FA, or a very good bump-firer.) The only people killed by AK's that I saw on the news were during house-clearings when they would go in and take families out, or random stray bullets. I always just attributed it to the AK-47's horrible accuracy :P

 

[SpeedRacer]

Yeah, it's definitely the AK's fault they can't hit their target...

 

[SpeedRacer]

And in the spirit of fairness, here's a couple for the AR guys...

 

[JWG223]

At least the guy with the AR is handling it correctly. Note the straight finger outside the trigger-guard...

Further, you will note that the people with AK's do not appear to be very affluent, whereas the AR owners appear at least more-so. Since the AK is cheaper, one can presume that the AR owner could have either, or, while the AK owner may not (likely didn't) have that luxury. Therefore, when the choice exists, AR is the answer

 

[Nomad.2nd]

What with all the gangs having them it's no wonder. (When I lived in South Texas, the AK-47 was the predominant weapon used by any and all gangs I ever heard of, regarding a long-gun. On the 4th of July, you could hear them all rattling off all over town with either FA, or a very good bump-firer.) The only people killed by AK's that I saw on the news were during house-clearings when they would go in and take families out, or random stray bullets. I always just attributed it to the AK-47's horrible accuracy :P

Hate to burst your bubble. (Ok, not really) but Stats show that ALL 'Evil assault rifles' (AK being only one of those) Account for LESS than 3% of all the gun crime.
Please stop spreading (False) antigun propaganda.

At least the guy with the AR is handling it correctly. Note the straight finger outside the trigger-guard...

Further, you will note that the people with AK's do not appear to be very affluent, whereas the AR owners appear at least more-so. Since the AK is cheaper, one can presume that the AR owner could have either, or, while the AK owner may not (likely didn't) have that luxury. Therefore, when the choice exists, AR is the answer

Yea, no.

One of my .50's is a $8,000 Barrett, I don't know how many guns I own... (Couple hundred)

I've got a few AR's. Never shot any of them. (This go round)


I shoot my AK's.
I am HARDLY alone. (A LARGE % of us having first hand experience at how poorly the AR and .223 perform when it matters)


Oh, I probably have more expensive AK's than you do AR's....

$500+ AK, VS $650-$700 AR... not so much a factor.


Something more interesting to me is to consider how many people have AR's because of their military background with the M16, or because that is the issue weapon.

EVERYTHING ELSE must stand on it's own merits.

I personally believe that if it were not for that 'Bean-counter given' advantage the AR would be less common than the .41 magnum (And I appoligise to all .41 lovers for the comparison)

 

[JWG223]

Hate to burst your bubble. (Ok, not really) but Stats show that ALL 'Evil assault rifles' (AK being only one of those) Account for LESS than 3% of all the gun crime.
Please stop spreading (False) antigun propaganda.




Yea, no.

One of my .50's is a $8,000 Barrett, I don't know how many guns I own... (Couple hundred)

I've got a few AR's. Never shot any of them. (This go round)


I shoot my AK's.
I am HARDLY alone. (A LARGE % of us having first hand experience at how poorly the AR and .223 perform when it matters)
I have not heard that it has

Oh, I probably have more expensive AK's than you do AR's....
Right now, yes. I am a 1-gun type of guy when it comes to a genre. I am working on a Noveske/ACOG/AAC build currently to fill my AR platform role. My Dad on the other hand has a myriad of AR's. The cheapest of which is a $500 mutt, the most expensive of which is an Armalite .308 M4gery. Most wear glass about equal to the value of the weapon.
$500+ AK, VS $650-$700 AR... not so much a factor.


Something more interesting to me is to consider how many people have AR's because of their military background with the M16, or because that is the issue weapon. I did not serve in the military. I like the AR because it does what I want very well: It is durable, reliable, and when correctly loaded has outstanding terminal ballistics. Feel free to PM me about that one because I could subvert a whole thread with it.

EVERYTHING ELSE must stand on it's own merits.

I personally believe that if it were not for that 'Bean-counter given' advantage the AR would be less common than the .41 magnum (And I appoligise to all .41 lovers for the comparison)

Please stop quoting me out of context. Go re-read my post. "I ever heard of" followed "any and all". That isn't propaganda. That's personal experience and was cited as just that.

 

[SpeedRacer]

Please Nomad, PM him so he can teach you all about terminal ballistics...

 

[JWG223]

Please Nomad, PM him so he can teach you all about terminal ballistics...

In short, with the correct load the 5.56 will destroy plenty of soft tissue. It will also penetrate a vest more reliably. However, against cars, etc. the 7.62x39 is superior unless M995 is used.

Here are a few pictures that MD Roberts took of the new SOST round's performance in gel, along with data:
5.56 mm Fed Mk318 Mod0 62 gr OTM (T556TNB1) fired from 16" 1/7 barrel AR15 at an ave MV of 2928 fps; 3 shot ave noted below:
BG: Pen = 17.3", NL = 1 cm, Max TC 11 cm @ 8 cm pen/extending to 17 cm, RD = 0.26", RL = 0.41", RW = 34.2 gr
AG: Pen = 18.1", NL = 0 cm, Max TC 7.5 cm @ 7 cm pen/extending to 15 cm, RD = 0.30", RL = 0.35", RW = 33.0 gr

_____________________________
7.62x39 mm Hornady 123 gr VMAX/SST PT fired from 16" barrel AKM at an ave MV of 2242 fps; 3 shot ave noted below:
BG: Pen = 15.6", NL = 0 cm, Max TC 8 cm @ 8 cm pen/extending to 19 cm, RD = 0.58", RL = 0.32", RW = 99.6 gr
AG: Pen = 12-13+", Note--no projectiles shot through AG recovered, as all 3 shots veered at angle and exited the gel blocks after 12-13" pen

You will note that the 5.56 had a larger TC, and that it also penetrated further than the 7.62x39. This is using the Hornady VMAX/SST projectile for the 7.62x39 as noted, and the new SOST round for the 5.56. You will further note that through automobile glass, the 5.56 round tracked truer than the 7.62x39. Further note that while TC is not indicative wholly of permanent cavity, it appears that both rounds performed VERY similarly regarding such.


Now, this was the "most aggressive" 7.62x39 round I could find, regarding soft-tissue performance. However, the 5.56 round used was about mid-spectrum, with both MK262 and 75gr TAP causing significantly more trauma to soft tissue.


Most of the complaints that you will find regarding the M4/A4 platform regarding terminal performance are a result of rounds that are used in combat, or FMJ/BST type ammunition used by police/SWAT against a vehicle. The 5.56 is notoriously poor at penetrating a vehicle windshield and disabling the occupants, as several police departments will attest. However, when using something like TBBC (Part# LE223T3) or the new SOST round (Part# T556TNB1), or many other similar rounds, as you can see above, it does VERY well against automobiles and their occupants.

The second complaint mentioned is in soft tissue alone, especially regarding our most recent conflict in Iraq/Afghanistan. The people we are fighting are thing, and the 5.56 wounds by fragmentation. However, this depends on the round de-stabilizing upon striking an opponent. Some lots of M855 are not destabilizing until 7"+ of penetration has been achieved. The round depends on fleet-yaw as well as it's "Angle of Attack--AOA" to destabilize. Their GSTAB is very high with the 1/7 twist, but more importantly, AOA will vary by a few degrees, roughly 0.5 and 2. If a round impacts at a low AOA, it will not destabilize until late in the wound tract. This means that you get a nice .224 ice-pick until that point.

The heavy OTM's destabilize very rapidly (usually within 1.5 and 3 inches of neck). They also have a larger cross-section and thus can impart more force on the cannelure, resulting in fragmentation down to lower velocities (Around 2300fps vs. 2700fps for M193/M855, extending the range of efficacy by almost 100m in some cases). Still other rounds, such as the TBBC (LE223T3) and the new SOST round, do not rely on fleet yaw at all, but rather design to either mushroom or fragment.

Moral of the story is, if you load your weapon with M193 or M855 you may or may not like the results, depending on the position of the moon, as it were. However, if you load your weapon with quality ammunition inspired more by terminal performance than the Hague convention, you will probably sing a different tune.

______________________________________

In short, load your weapon according to the threat you plan on facing, and if you can't decide, the new SOST round looks pretty good. The AK-47 using FMJ's will cause more damage than an AR using FMJ's assuming the particular shot from the AR has very low fleet-yaw. However, the AK-47 will not fragment with FMJ ammunition like the AR-15 will, so if all goes well--or instead of relying on murphy, you buy better ammo--the AR should outperform the AK-47 with FMJ's, and be nearly equal when comparing VMAX/SST ammunition to 75 or 77gr OTM.

The one area in which the AK-47 will excel is with Corbon DPX, or soft-point ammunition when hunting deer. More retained mass will allow greater penetration. However, this is all lost on an 8-14" thick human torso, where fragmentation is a superior wounding mechanism. I simply presumed we were talking about people instead of deer...

*Pictures and gel-test data courtesy of MD Roberts.
More information as well as part of what I posted, can be sourced from here: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf

___________________________________________________________________

Okay, now I'm waiting for you to prove to me that your AK-47 offers superior terminal ballistics when engaging a human adversary. While I grant that it will perforate cars better, FMJ to FMJ, and that when loaded appropriately (DPX, etc.) does better where more penetration is concerned (hunting a black bear or something?) that's about all I will concede.

 

[Nomad.2nd]

Please Nomad, PM him so he can teach you all about terminal ballistics...

I am admittedly ignorant about it... I just know how hard it was to kill people with it and how much they jam in the real world!


ETA: When the Jello people attack I will pay attention. Till that time... I'll trust what I've had happen when I shot people with bones.

 

[Nomad.2nd]

You will further note that through automobile glass, the 5.56 round tracked truer than the 7.62x39.

This stood out among the jumble of gobbily gook.

Again, All i know is that on more than one occasion I put a burst into a car windshield coming up on our 6, only to watch the tracers (And ball) reflect right off the regular automotive glass.

(I know they wern't armored vehicles because the .308 from the 240 took care of the problem!)

I've shot more than a couple car windows with AK ammo since... no such issues.


...But what do I know...