M-16 VS AK-47.....Again

[JWG223]

This stood out among the jumble of gobbily gook.

Again, All i know is that on more than one occasion I put a burst into a car windshield coming up on our 6, only to watch the tracers (And ball) reflect right off the regular automotive glass.

(I know they wern't armored vehicles because the .308 from the 240 took care of the problem!)

I've shot more than a couple car windows with AK ammo since... no such issues.


...But what do I know...

As I noted previously, had you read all that "gobbily gook", M855 and M193 do not do the greatest against glass, hence the development of SOST.

 

[JWG223]

I am admittedly ignorant about it... I just know how hard it was to kill people with it and how much they jam in the real world!


ETA: When the Jello people attack I will pay attention. Till that time... I'll trust what I've had happen when I shot people with bones.

My roommate had no problem killing people with M855 if he did his part, it did it's part. As to the weapons jamming, well, he said the issue weapons sucked compared to my stuff, and considering I have never had a jam in all the thousands of rounds I have put down range from my Dad's stash of AR's or the one's I have owned in the past that could not be traced to an immediate cause, such as improperly re-sized cases from reloads, or lack of lube in 800 rounds, I'm pretty confident in the AR.

I am not saying the AK-47 is bad by any means. I think it makes a good trunk gun, personally.

 

[Nomad.2nd]

As I noted previously, had you read all that "gobbily gook", M855 and M193 do not do the greatest against glass, hence the development of SOST.

I was using SS109, which the AR lovers tell me overpenatrate.

Not so much.

I just know that rather than going: "Ok, do I have the ammo in the weapon to punch through that cover they are hiding behind... I hope, or the one which has the ammo I want to shoot them with AFTER I get through the barrier.... I'd rather just carry a .30

My roommate had no problem killing people with M855 if he did his part, it did it's part. As to the weapons jamming, well, he said the issue weapons sucked compared to my stuff, and considering I have never had a jam in all the thousands of rounds I have put down range from my Dad's stash of AR's or the one's I have owned in the past that could not be traced to an immediate cause, such as improperly re-sized cases from reloads, or lack of lube in 800 rounds, I'm pretty confident in the AR.

I am not saying the AK-47 is bad by any means. I think it makes a good trunk gun, personally.

Your stuff? I thought you were in the process of building one?

Oh the AR will do it... The most most Americans (The fraction of one % who will ever use a rifle for personal protection) will ever do is pick up the weapon and shoot less than 3 mags through it, and if the weapon is clean, well lubed, with the 'right ammo' (What that is I don't pretend to know) and doesn't have one of those 'AR problems' which happen randomly with no warning...

He will be fine.

And the M16's, M4's SAWS etc did it... it's just that it takes 5-7 rounds in the chest to 'do it'!

Plinking at the range is VERY different from the stresses and situations you deal with in combat. (Meaning your gear, but you too)
You see this in 'non square range classes' where weapons which 'worked for thousands of rounds' (in a relaxed environment) fail to get through a couple hundred.

 

[JWG223]

I was using SS109, which the AR lovers tell me overpenatrate.
I don't think it does any such thing.
Not so much.
Agree.
I just know that rather than going: "Ok, do I have the ammo in the weapon to punch through that cover they are hiding behind... I hope, or the one which has the ammo I want to shoot them with AFTER I get through the barrier.... I'd rather just carry a .30
In a military environment, I think that is a wise choice, however, the SOST ammunition is a "band-aid" of sorts for guys like you who truly do have to worry a lot about vehicles, etc. However, I have never heard of any other .mil claiming the M855 and M856 "bounced off" a windshield. My roommate did not have any trouble killing haji in his vehicle, although the police departments that have had issue with it usually found that the rounds fragmented during their passage through the wind-shield and did minimal damage to the interior/occupants of the vehicle. Were the angles involved in your shoot "extreme"? That said, around cars, I think the AK-47 definitely has its place unless barrier-blind ammo is used in the M4/A4, in which case it does okay, too.


Your stuff? I thought you were in the process of building one?
I have owned an A4 clone, and an A2. I regularly shot my Dad's plethora of AR's (CAR, numerous M4gery's, HBAR6601, and he still has a .308 and .300 SAUM he wants me to sight in for him when I get the time) when I lived on 55 acres in E. TX a few years ago. I am currently building one of my own, after having gotten out of AR's for a while. My Noveske build is my re-entry into the AR world. I got into pistols and shotguns for a while. Mainly SIG, high-end 1911's, and Benelli M4's (I have owned 4 now, all sold to fund other various projects, and my current one up for sale as well. Reason being I just LOVE! the 590A1 I bought for a friend as a Christmas gift and want one myself, but don't feel a need for 2 shotguns. As stated, I'm a 1-gun per genre type.)
Anyway, my former USMC roommate remarked how nice it was that nothing I owned or that my Dad owned ever jammed in his presence. He said even on the square range in the USMC they had plenty of un-planned clearance drills. The worst offender in his opinion was the SAW, which he viewed as a steaming pile when it came to reliability.

Oh the AR will do it... The most most Americans (The fraction of one % who will ever use a rifle for personal protection) will ever do is pick up the weapon and shoot less than 3 mags through it, and if the weapon is clean, well lubed, with the 'right ammo' (What that is I don't pretend to know) and doesn't have one of those 'AR problems' which happen randomly with no warning...

He will be fine.
I have shot hundreds of rounds through AR's at a sitting and not had an issue. To be fair though, I did not drop them in the dirt, either.
And the M16's, M4's SAWS etc did it... it's just that it takes 5-7 rounds in the chest to 'do it'!
Again, I was not there, but my former roommate said 1 or at most 2 were all he ever needed. What distances were involved in your 5-7 rounds? He claimed most of his shots were less than 150 yards. Also, lot-to-lot the M855 you guys got over there varied. Some yawed early, some unfortunately late.
Plinking at the range is VERY different from the stresses and situations you deal with in combat. (Meaning your gear, but you too)
You see this in 'non square range classes' where weapons which 'worked for thousands of rounds' (in a relaxed environment) fail to get through a couple hundred.
100% agreement! This is why while I do not subject my gear to that schedule, I buy gear that has been vetted in that environment. That means stuff like Colt, Noveske, LaRue, etc.

My dad's AR's consist of a mutt or two that would probably fail miserably, but most of his stuff is Colt and has done fine. For that matter, like you said, I have LIGHTLY used his stuff and it all did fine.

The one issue I had was with my personal AR, a Sabre Defense. The edge of the bolt next to the extractor tunnel was not formed correctly and actually shaved enough brass from case-heads to clog the ejector tunnel. A new bolt fixed the problem. I have NEVER! seen that before, or since.

 

[JWG223]

Another viewpoint I stumbled across, watching now:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN-T_zeTdTM&feature=relmfu

 

[SpeedRacer]

Oh...my...god...I think I threw up in my mouth a little. JW, you're a special breed of Internet Ninja. Keep trying man, some day, someone on some forum will actually think you know what you're talking about.

 

[#1bambam]

I am not saying the AK-47 is bad by any means. I think it makes a good trunk gun, personally.

So you admit that a AK is your go to gun in your car.

 

[JWG223]

So you admit that a AK is your go to gun in your car.

No, but I would like a junk SKS for such purpose, but with the crime in my area, I worry that a trunk-gun would just arm a criminal. Too many smash-grabs here for me to want a weapon in my trunk unattended, considering I work night-shift and my car sits out in a very poorly lit parking lot in Bossier City for 12 hours at a time.

 

[JWG223]

Oh...my...god...I think I threw up in my mouth a little. JW, you're a special breed of Internet Ninja. Keep trying man, some day, someone on some forum will actually think you know what you're talking about.

I never CLAIMED to be anything I'm not. Thank-you for your valuable contribution to this thread, though. I found your pictures in response to my joke about AK inaccuracy amusing.

 

[machinedrummer]

It's time to develop the AM-76. RJF has a new project. They can develop a hybrid of the two. It will last forever, be accurate enough for any fire fight, cheap to produce, easy to maintain, never malfunction, work in all conditions, and doesn't need lots of accessories to make it look cool. Oh never mind the AK-47 already does all that

 

[SpeedRacer]

I never CLAIMED to be anything I'm not. Thank-you for your valuable contribution to this thread, though. I found your pictures in response to my joke about AK inaccuracy amusing.

This thread was humorous and tongue-in-cheek before you showed up and starting going all Wikipedia Ninja on us.

You have NO experience with anything you speak of. No one gives a **** what your roommate, cousin, dad, Justin Beiber poster, or favorite stuffed animal tells you. Whenever you argue third-hand information with someone who has ACTUALLY been there and done/seen all the things you theorize about, you give yourself the mark of The Idiot.

Don't feel special though. We were lucky enough to go several months without an Idiot on the forum, but you're definitely not the first and probably not the last. Eventually you'll move to another forum (I suggest Airsoft) where your baseless opinions and copy-paste skills are more appreciated.

 

[JWG223]

This thread was humorous and tongue-in-cheek before you showed up and starting going all Wikipedia Ninja on us.

You have NO experience with anything you speak of. No one gives a **** what your roommate, cousin, dad, Justin Beiber poster, or favorite stuffed animal tells you. Whenever you argue third-hand information with someone who has ACTUALLY been there and done/seen all the things you theorize about, you give yourself the mark of The Idiot.

Don't feel special though. We were lucky enough to go several months without an Idiot on the forum, but you're definitely not the first and probably not the last. Eventually you'll move to another forum (I suggest Airsoft) where your baseless opinions and copy-paste skills are more appreciated.

I'm relating experiences of others to you, and never claimed them as my own. Don't like it? Fair enough.

I have put plenty of 5.56 into various different things (automobile/plate steel/building materials, etc.), as well as some 7.62x39. I can tell you what it will/won't do regarding that.

Since I never shot a person with it, and since I do not have a lab, gel and real-world terminal performance on people will of course have to come from a 2nd hand source from myself, such as MD Roberts, etc.

Considering I never claimed anything otherwise, and also considering that you have nothing intelligent to post in rebuttal, where does that leave us except staring at the data provided by me shooting a bunch of car doors and plate steel and whatnot, and giving you information from labs about gel and service-people about people?

You don't like my information, you are free to disregard it, etc. However, I have not seen you post one intelligent rebuttal to anything I have stated.

You don't like that I'm not enlisted? I really don't care. It was not the career I chose. You enlisted? Thanks for your service, and I'm glad my tax dollars are going to sustain the best military in the world.

Would you like to add more baseless insults, or do you have anything of substance for us?

As to copy/paste. The only thing I copy/pasted were the numerical data and the pictures and the links. I happen to have the capacity to properly string a sentence and understand the concept of terminal ballistics, and the physics thereof as relates to the topic at hand. What I posted was a synopsis of what I have personally observed, read from MD Roberts work, and garnered from conversations with him, and others. I typed every word of that "gobbily gook" that some of you seem to have trouble reading, and it came from a working understanding of what was typed and not simple wrote memorization.

 

[Leonidas]

Wow

There is something to be said for quitting while you are behind.

 

[Nomad.2nd]

This thread was humorous and tongue-in-cheek before you showed up and starting going all Wikipedia Ninja on us.

You have NO experience with anything you speak of. No one gives a **** what your roommate, cousin, dad, Justin Beiber poster, or favorite stuffed animal tells you. Whenever you argue third-hand information with someone who has ACTUALLY been there and done/seen all the things you theorize about, you give yourself the mark of The Idiot.

Don't feel special though. We were lucky enough to go several months without an Idiot on the forum, but you're definitely not the first and probably not the last. Eventually you'll move to another forum (I suggest Airsoft) where your baseless opinions and copy-paste skills are more appreciated.

While I somewhat agree with you I think you might be a little hard on the kid. (No offense ment by that remark)

My anticdotal experences arn't the hand of god or anything... I make no claim to them being anything but what I experenced.

We ALL rely on 3rd hand info every day.

That said:
Across the room to across the Euphraties river.

Angle was me standing in the back of a Hummer shooting at a car behind me, to me standing in a 7 ton shooting at a car behind me.

As to colt etc.
Issue is Colt and FN.

They fail.

 

[SpeedRacer]

While I somewhat agree with you I think you might be a little hard on the kid. (No offense ment by that remark)

You're probably right, but it's not as much him as it is his "type" that frustrates me. He's just the current representative.

And I wasn't putting you on the spot as THE expert, again you're just the current representative for the other side of the coin, ie guys with real world experience.

I learned more in a few minutes of Louis Awerbuck telling lunch time stories than I could reading every scientific fact ever published regarding weapons, ballistics, what works and what don't. That was when I stopped putting so much stock in "lab results". Both types of information are beneficial. I just can't stand the Internet-Know-It-Alls anymore. And it goes beyond this thread with this fella.

 

[Hitman]

For a second I WAS ALMOST going to post my eye witness accounts of AK's and M16's failing numerous times overseas. Then I remembered, "Wait a second that would be like the 9th thread to repeat that eyewitness account only to keep hearing that same old argument. So Screw you guys But I'll throw this out there;

How about this non-contradiction;
When I saw an AK or three fail in Iraq/Afghan and the M16's running smoothly I didn't think "I knew they were junk!"
When I saw an M16 or three fail in Iraq/Afghan and the AK's running smoothly I didn't think "I knew they were junk!"

Both statements are in fact TRUE.

So why the fuss? The ultimate answer is .....drum roll...... EGO!

That's my honest opinion about this ******** topic. Just like Glock vs M&P vs XD vs your mother vs 10mm.

It's MORE about EGO than anything else....and I laugh at it and...you should too.

 

[Nomad.2nd]

For a second I WAS ALMOST going to post my eye witness accounts of AK's and M16's failing numerous times overseas. Then I remembered, "Wait a second that would be like the 9th thread to repeat that eyewitness account only to keep hearing that same old argument. So Screw you guys But I'll throw this out there;

How about this non-contradiction;
When I saw an AK or three fail in Iraq/Afghan and the M16's running smoothly I didn't think "I knew they were junk!"
When I saw an M16 or three fail in Iraq/Afghan and the AK's running smoothly I didn't think "I knew they were junk!"

Both statements are in fact TRUE.

So why the fuss? The ultimate answer is .....drum roll...... EGO!

That's my honest opinion about this ******** topic. Just like Glock vs M&P vs XD vs your mother vs 10mm.

It's MORE about EGO than anything else....and I laugh at it and...you should too.

Question:

Do you Deny that the AK's that failed were (Mostly) poorly put together 3rd world examples, and had been ABUSED and allowed to rust for YEARS...
And the M16's that failed were STILL SLAVED over and babied to TRY to make them run?


And remember... this is an 'amusement thread'... Have fun with it!

 

[SGT_Kramer]

you have to be able to hit with AR to take down target. If your randomly squeezing off rounds with your eyes closed it doesn't cut it. But thats when the larger pattern of the AK could be effective. I could see that working well for some.

 

[SpeedRacer]

There's no argument that AKs are more reliable. They were designed to be, plain and simple, with the sacrifice being the creature comforts found on the M16/AR platform. Just depends on what's more important to you...

Personally I like the stupid simple approach. The AR has a manual of arms, the AK has a paragraph.

 

[SGT_Kramer]

There's no argument that AKs are more reliable. They were designed to be, plain and simple, with the sacrifice being the creature comforts found on the M16/AR platform. Just depends on what's more important to you...

Personally I like the stupid simple approach. The AR has a manual of arms, the AK has a paragraph.

Second nature, Theirs reasons why you don't see ton of AK's running 3 gun either unless it's a poor kid can't afford a AR