M-16 VS AK-47.....Again

[Hitman]

Question:
Do you Deny that the AK's that failed were (Mostly) poorly put together 3rd world examples, and had been ABUSED and allowed to rust for YEARS...

And the M16's that failed were STILL SLAVED over and babied to TRY to make them run?

1: They were AK's(Didn't know there were so many different kind??)
and they were not rusty, they were used almost daily.

2: AP brush and CLP once a day, no more/less than the AK's were getting but I'd venture to say Marines can clean a weapon better than Iraqi Soldiers or the ANA

I'd have to take an AK in a SHTF scenario, but to hear some folks scream that they don't fail is annoying. They fail like all guns fail.

IMHO and as seen with my own eyes, A properly taken care of M16 and AK47 will have the same failure rate. Now an Improperly maintained AK47 and M16 will NOT have the same failure rate with the AR/M16 on the losing end of that deal.

Would you agree to that?

 

[SpeedRacer]

Second nature, Theirs reasons why you don't see ton of AK's running 3 gun either unless it's a poor kid can't afford a AR

********, you don't see AKs in 3-gun because they don't make baby blue or candy red receivers for them.

 

[SGT_Kramer]

********, you don't see AKs in 3-gun because they don't make baby blue or candy red receivers for them.

BS the chick at RJ has a blue one

 

[SpeedRacer]

BS the chick at RJ has a blue one

 

[Nomad.2nd]

There's no argument that AKs are more reliable. They were designed to be, plain and simple, with the sacrifice being the creature comforts found on the M16/AR platform. Just depends on what's more important to you...

Personally I like the stupid simple approach. The AR has a manual of arms, the AK has a paragraph.

Sidebar:

To me the AK's easier AND the manual of arms is easier????


'Creature comforts' ????

1: They were AK's(Didn't know there were so many different kind??)
and they were not rusty, they were used almost daily.

2: AP brush and CLP once a day, no more/less than the AK's were getting but I'd venture to say Marines can clean a weapon better than Iraqi Soldiers or the ANA

I'd have to take an AK in a SHTF scenario, but to hear some folks scream that they don't fail is annoying. They fail like all guns fail.

IMHO and as seen with my own eyes, A properly taken care of M16 and AK47 will have the same failure rate. Now an Improperly maintained AK47 and M16 will NOT have the same failure rate with the AR/M16 on the losing end of that deal.

Would you agree to that?

You had NOT ABUSED AND NEGLECTED AK's in IRAQ!!!!
What'd you have, the ONLY Haji's who take care of ANYTHING in the WHOLE WORLD!!!

I agree that AK's fail... as do all guns. I've had LESS than half a dozen failures (Almost all ether my fault or dead ammo) in over 19,000 rounds through my WASR.
-Almost ALL in classes, NOT plinking.

I DO agree that Improperly maintained the AK wins.

I DO NOT agree that properly taken care of they are equal.

An AK... runs. If you can take it out the box and get through 3 mags it's gonna work for the next 10,000 rounds atleast (As a rule) AR's have this annoying habit of just breaking for little rhyme or reason.

I recall one Contractors shooting package I helped teach. There were 8-10 students in 2 teams.

I recall the final exercise. By the end of it the only rifles still in operation were the 2 AK's (One per team) and ALL the AR shooters were down to pistols (NOT due to ammo)

It usually didn't go to that extreme, that made it funnier. But it followed the trend.
(BTW, the AR shooters cleaned and babied their rifles at lunch... the AK shooters cleaned them at night... when they felt like it!)

 

[SpeedRacer]

Sidebar:

To me the AK's easier AND the manual of arms is easier????


'Creature comforts' ????

Creature comforts - collapsible stock, bolt hold open, so on and so forth. In other words, things that are nice to have, but Kalashnikov didn't feel were necessary, or were additional failure points.

And we agree on the AK manual of arms, maybe I worded it in a confusing way.

 

[Nomad.2nd]

Creature comforts - collapsible stock, bolt hold open, so on and so forth. In other words, things that are nice to have, but Kalashnikov didn't feel were necessary, or were additional failure points.

And we agree on the AK manual of arms, maybe I worded it in a confusing way.

Oh. I just use the Collapsible stock to shorten to too long length and leave it. (AK doesn't have that problem)
I rate the M4 stock as poor b'c unlike my AK's it doesn't fold.

And then... the buffer tube. Buddy of mine but-stroked this dude and broke his buttstock... M16 was useless...

Bolt hold open never seemed like an advantage to me except on a suckey range where you had to show clear.

JMHO, YMMV

 

[Paintball]

does anyone make an AR chambered in 10mm? I know they make em in 458 socom and 50 beowulf but does anyone have the balls to harness the destruction of 10mm to an AR?

Yes with 18rnd. cap.. Also available in 9mm, 40 s&w & .45acp.

http://olyarms.net/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.pbv.v8.tpl&product_id=54&category_id=29&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=5&vmcchk=1&Itemid=5

 

[SGT_Kramer]

Bolt hold open never seemed like an advantage to me except on a suckey range where you had to show clear.

That statement makes me wonder if you've ever been trained on AR platform at all..Left hand operation while wepon is on shoulder with right hand in position seems like a HUGE advantage to me.

 

[returningliberty]

Well, I don't know why, but I'm going to inject my opinion here too. Similar viewpoint as nomad here, except I don't own an AK post-army.

AR: you get issued a REALLY shitty one. Mine was a pretty awful M16. I wasn't a cool kid with an M4, but I was NG. My buddy in basic got issued a decent one, and he went to 3rd ID after scout school.

When you drag it through **** for weeks, it tends to get grimy in places you can't really clean perfectly. So when you start with a bad specimen and add in non perfect maintenance, it fails sometimes. Hence, SPORTS.
the 249 is far worse off. It jams pretty consistently in my experience, but we carried the 240b which is an amazing machine. No failures that I can remember.
As for combat performance?
I dunno, when you shoot a haj he goes down. If he fails to go down you shoot at him again.
Anyone behind glass or cover pretty much got hosed(multiple shooters and many times an MG adding in), so I can't really attest to how good a "clean killer" the 5.56 is.
Now, I have a good AR. I have tried, Hard, to replicate the kind of **** I saw in the real world to get it to fail predictably, and it does, but not NEARLY as much as my issue weapon did.

Take my opinion with a grain of salt, I wasn't there as long as MANY others, and I didn't have the kind of 14 hour firefights my friend in the 173rd did.

I'll say one more thing though. If I had to do it all over again, I'd get in better shape and hump the heavy ass M-14 with a full combat load of ammo. Screw that 230rds of 5.56 crap, I want 300 of the big ****. No compromise.

 

[SpeedRacer]

That statement makes me wonder if you've ever been trained on AR platform at all..

 

[Nomad.2nd]

That statement makes me wonder if you've ever been trained on AR platform at all..Left hand operation while wepon is on shoulder with right hand in position seems like a HUGE advantage to me.

Couple things on that:

First:
I'm cross dominant. Right handed and left eyed.

So I usually run rifles lefty, although I can and do switch in CQB.

Second:
I run my guns the same way... to reload weapon points upwards and I reload with the weapon magweld turned inboard.

This allows you to see your target AND the weapon you are reloading at the same time.

Makes for a surer reload.

-Gomez can show you how if you don't follow me.

Do the same thing rifle or pistol, lefty or right.



Third:
I don't trust the 'Bolt release' I've seen them fail to fully chamber too many times. I run the charging handle for that extra fraction of an inch of spring compression. Not much, but it helps.

Fourth:

USMC, 0311/0321, also took Gunsite's .223 class with an M4.

Tried to stay away from them ever since, but there's a pic of me (I think from a Contractor Medical class) with my AK74 infront of me, Gomez's AK47 slung across my back, laying down fire with a AR in a training class (They were 'dead' and I was using up their ammo first) floating around somewhere...

I do Ok.

 

[SGT_Kramer]

Couple things on that:

First:
I'm cross dominant. Right handed and left eyed.

Explains the whole thing right there! Your one of THOSE guys.... Well I could see how it may not work right for you.

 

[Nomad.2nd]

Explains the whole thing right there! Your one of THOSE guys.... Well I could see how it may not work right for you.

Figured that might.


But like I said... I've ran them righty also.

 

[Rm105629]

If AR people want to get mad, they should read the "Assault Rifles" section of the Zombie Survival Guide. The author claims the AR is "considered by many to be the worst assault rifle ever invented" because "its over-complicated mechanism is difficult to clean and prone to jamming." He also talks about its "delicate plastic stock." and finally refers to it as a "second class weapon."

I definitely don't agree with that, but I just like stirring up the pot

 

[returningliberty]

If AR people want to get mad, they should read the "Assault Rifles" section of the Zombie Survival Guide. The author claims the AR is "considered by many to be the worst assault rifle ever invented" because "its over-complicated mechanism is difficult to clean and prone to jamming." He also talks about its "delicate plastic stock." and finally refers to it as a "second class weapon."

I definitely don't agree with that, but I just like stirring up the pot

Author is full of ****, can personally attest to witnessing an M16 stock bash in a human skull. 2nd hand reports (with pics) of an M4 stock Also turn a skull into goo, that stock did break though. Buffer tube did not bend and weapon still functioned. (needless to say, I have a solid stock on my AR)

 

[Rm105629]

Author is full of ****, can personally attest to witnessing an M16 stock bash in a human skull. 2nd hand reports (with pics) of an M4 stock Also turn a skull into goo, that stock did break though. Buffer tube did not bend and weapon still functioned. (needless to say, I have a solid stock on my AR)

Oh, I know he's full of **** and lacks knowledge in that area. I just thought it was pretty humorous that someone would publish something like that drivel

 

[03protege]

If AR people want to get mad, they should read the "Assault Rifles" section of the Zombie Survival Guide. The author claims the AR is "considered by many to be the worst assault rifle ever invented" because "its over-complicated mechanism is difficult to clean and prone to jamming." He also talks about its "delicate plastic stock." and finally refers to it as a "second class weapon."

I definitely don't agree with that, but I just like stirring up the pot

He also suggested the m1 Garand as the end all solution to firearms because it can shoot common hunting ammo (which it can't in stock form).

Then goes on to talk about spears, chainsaws, and other ****.

 

[returningliberty]

You know I bet the spear has actually killed more people than every other weapon in history. Maybe even combined.

 

[SGT_Kramer]

I think I'll be on the AK side next time this comes up. That way I can stir up a different group of people. I like my AK just not ergo's and I like to know I can hit at 300+ meters without a second thought.