M-16 VS AK-47.....Again

[Nomad.2nd]

You do lose folding capability while it's mounted, but it is quick detach and does retain zero. Obviously doesn't help much if you want to carry/transport your rifle folded and ready to rock (which you do IIRC).

Yep

You can still easily remove the topcover and do a complete field strip with the optic mounted.

Easily, and easily while incoming.... Different things.

You can't go wrong with the Ultimak, but I prefer the side mount because the rifle balances better, the optic sits closer to the eye, and you can still easily remove the gas tube for cleaning (especially important when shooting corrosive ammo).

Balances good to me....little heavy on the front end points better.

Optic farther out helps you see the whole area better.

I've been rocking corrosive ammo in the 74 with an ultimak... it's G2G.


YMMV.

 

[returningliberty]

you know, this thread gives me the idea... what about an AK (or some .308 derivative of) vs AR10 comparrison? I don't own and have Barely shot either, i'd be interested in people's opinions; especially since i'm considering building one for my next long gun

 

[Nomad.2nd]

you know, this thread gives me the idea... what about an AK (or some .308 derivative of) vs AR10 comparrison? I don't own and have Barely shot either, i'd be interested in people's opinions; especially since i'm considering building one for my next long gun

Mags, PArts...

I'll take one of my M1A's or FAL's over ether...

 

[returningliberty]

Mags and parts wouldn't really be an issue since it would be a range queen. If I seriously needed a rifle I'd stick with what I know and carry my AR.

More interested in the "fun" factor.

 

[Sin-ster]

It's the Indian that counts, not the Bow/Arrow.

 

[JWG223]

I've told this story before, but your new:

Last year I got conned into taking a training class with "Redback one" with a buddy (Horrible class)
Turned out, it was more into 'gameing' and 'time score' etc.

3 of us in the class and the Instructor shot some due to the small size.

My Buddy (Army Sniper, with several classes under his belt)
Nother guy who was a training junky also
And me.

They all had AR's with Aimpoints, and I had my AK's.

74 the first day, and during the 2nd I switched to the 47.

Set up identically, 'Kiber pass' guns with Aimpoints on Ultimaks.

They were running plate carriers and Drop legs, and I was running a Maxpidition shoulder bag (Jumbo IIRC) and a AIWB Glock 26 with big dots.

was SLIGHTLY slower on the reloads mostly, but I also re-snapped the buckle each time. (They took their retaining straps off.)

End of the day we were neck and neck, time and accuracy.

They were running overt, and I was running covert.
(Sometimes they were faster/little closser to the bull, and sometimes I was)

And I make NO claims to being some awesome shooter.

So Sorry, I throw that one out.

Now if we are taking fractions of a second... Yes, I'd probably give the break to the AR.

Any real world probability... Too close to call.

My point: Includes reloads.


As to the safety:
Not only are there extended safety's that solve that issue and are pretty much 'drop in'

It's unneeded.

like I ran my SAW... Hand's on the pistol grip the safety's off.

Hand comes off the pistol grip safety goes on.

You're also comparing people to each other ALONG with the weapons. Did you run against your own "time" with an AR?

 

[Nomad.2nd]

You're also comparing people to each other ALONG with the weapons. Did you run against your own "time" with an AR?

I'm better with the AK.

Took awhile. When I got out the Corps I had the same decision everyone does.

Run what your used to, or start from the ground floor and learn a whole new way to run a gun.

More work, more money, but in the end I decided to start with the better platform and put in the investment.

Don't regret it, but I understand why others don't.

 

[JWG223]

I'm better with the AK.

Took awhile. When I got out the Corps I had the same decision everyone does.

Run what your used to, or start from the ground floor and learn a whole new way to run a gun.

More work, more money, but in the end I decided to start with the better platform and put in the investment.

Don't regret it, but I understand why others don't.

Well then I guess you already know, but for you, AK all the way.

I gotta ask though, what inspired you to want to take the time to train with it to this level of proficiency? Do you think you could be BETTER with the AR, had you trained with it this hard?

You call the AK the better platform, and for you I guess it is, but is your sole decision based on your experience with M855 being a sub-standard performer?

 

[Matchgrade]

This thread fails because neither weapon is 10mm.

 

[Nomad.2nd]

Well then I guess you already know, but for you, AK all the way.

I gotta ask though, what inspired you to want to take the time to train with it to this level of proficiency? Do you think you could be BETTER with the AR, had you trained with it this hard?

You call the AK the better platform, and for you I guess it is, but is your sole decision based on your experience with M855 being a sub-standard performer?

Nope, I did lots of research and YEARS of living with m16's and M4's.

They break and are unreliable.

If you think differently, good on ya.


As to what "inspired me to take the time"

I enjoy it.

Yes, I'd be better with the AR than I used to be (Naturally) but I preach:

Pick your needs, then pick your round, then pick your platform.

Gatta practice what I preach.

308's better, but WHEN am I gonna be justified here in shooting past 350 yards...?

 

[JWG223]

Nope, I did lots of research and YEARS of living with m16's and M4's.

They break and are unreliable.

If you think differently, good on ya.


As to what "inspired me to take the time"

I enjoy it.

Yes, I'd be better with the AR than I used to be (Naturally) but I preach:

Pick your needs, then pick your round, then pick your platform.

Gatta practice what I preach.

308's better, but WHEN am I gonna be justified here in shooting past 350 yards...?

What things did you find most un-reliable on the AR platform? Do you think you would have found some weak-spots in the AK if you had been in a military that issued them?

 

[Nomad.2nd]

What things did you find most un-reliable on the AR platform?

Do you think you would have found some weak-spots in the AK if you had been in a military that issued them?

Failure to feed, eject, and extract. And if you don't 'push-pull' the mag often you don't get a 2nd shot off!

Naturally. Everything has weak spots.

Fortunately, with what I outlined and the use of a red dot... it's pretty much solved.

 

[JWG223]

Failure to feed, eject, and extract. And if you don't 'push-pull' the mag often you don't get a 2nd shot off!

Naturally. Everything has weak spots.

Fortunately, with what I outlined and the use of a red dot... it's pretty much solved.

I would like to provide a counterpoint (simply for the sake of it, obviously as you have a platform that works for you and "don't care").

The AR's (M4/A4's) you are used to were running with USGI mags, and a carbine gas system. Both of those items are inferior to the new midlength, as well as the PMAG.

Most AR malfunctions are caused by the mag when it comes to feeding. Most extractions are caused either by a dirty/dry gun, or the gas system/extractor.

On a carbine-length gas systems, case obturation has not had nearly as long to subside as with the rifle-length system that it was originally designed for (and much more pressure from the DI system), or the midlength, which while not perfect, is better. This can lead to cases sticking and is why the carbine extractor requires either an extra-strength spring and harder insert, or an O-ring for added tension. Evidence for this can be seen in the dust tests the US military did a few years ago (2006,2007) with the rifle doing better than the carbine.

While what you observed in your service is obviously a problem, with better engineering, the platform has improved greatly.

 

[SGT_Kramer]

M4's and M16 use different BCG more was changed then the extrractor spring to comp for the carbine gas system then the civilian m4gery It was a boo boo to begin with. Better QC from contractors has made the biggest difference IMHO and the military M4- m16 or today is not the wore out POS from basic training you remember. This 10 year war we've been in has led to ALOT of mid changed in the weapon systems. I know I've helped convert m16 A1's time frame till present and it's constantly getting better through soilder feedback and better solutions. I know I can tune a AR like a grand piano and run it to white hot and back several times before I expect any kind of problems. And the new USGI mags seem to work every bit as good as P Mags.

 

[JWG223]

M4's and M16 use different BCG more was changed then the extrractor spring to comp for the carbine gas system then the civilian m4gery It was a boo boo to begin with. Better QC from contractors has made the biggest difference IMHO and the military M4- m16 or today is not the wore out POS from basic training you remember. This 10 year war we've been in has led to ALOT of mid changed in the weapon systems. I know I've helped convert m16 A1's time frame till present and it's constantly getting better through soilder feedback and better solutions. I know I can tune a AR like a grand piano and run it to white hot and back several times before I expect any kind of problems. And the new USGI mags seem to work every bit as good as P Mags.

What differs between the M4 and A4's BCG, or did you specifically mean the M16 of yester-year vs. the new M4 of today?

The new USGI mags are a lot better now that they changed followers yet again. I like how the PMAG extends a touch further into the weapon, though, and has what amount to "feed ramps" of a sort of its own. Some even claim it eliminates the need for M4 feed-ramps on FA carbine-length gas system equipped weapons.

 

[SGT_Kramer]

Alittle more reserch real quick tells me the BCG change was a Timing issue for burst - auto m4's only and is why it didn't translate to civilian unless you get one with full auto capabillity, Gotta love having big army at your fingertips to ignor interweb rumors.

 

[JWG223]

Alittle more reserch real quick tells me the BCG change was a Timing issue for burst - auto m4's only and is why it didn't translate to civilian unless you get one with full auto capabillity, Gotta love having big army at your fingertips to ignor interweb rumors.

I know all sorts of BCG's have come out, but figured the FA full-circle w/ fully shrouded FP was the current standard. I know used to the SA vs. FA BCG was a big deal, but now most major AR manufacturers just install the FA. That's what was in both my A2 and A4 SDI ARs. In fact, you can buy USGI contract over-run stuff. It's the same as far as I can tell.

The issue the FA carrier's extra mass vs. the SA carrier corrected was bolt-bounce, as well as holding the cyclic rate down a bit and delaying unlocking/extraction until case obturation had subsided and chamber pressures dropped a bit more.

 

[SGT_Kramer]

I know all sorts of BCG's have come out, but figured the FA full-circle w/ fully shrouded FP was the current standard. I know used to the SA vs. FA BCG was a big deal, but now most major AR manufacturers just install the FA. That's what was in both my A2 and A4 SDI ARs. In fact, you can buy USGI contract over-run stuff. It's the same as far as I can tell.

The issue the FA carrier's extra mass vs. the SA carrier corrected was bolt-bounce, as well as holding the cyclic rate down a bit and delaying unlocking/extraction until case obturation had subsided and chamber pressures dropped a bit more.

yep. New newer is a hair shorter aslwell really like a hair and old can be replaced with new but not new old.. That why they still have 2 different numbers so if there is old stock laying around you don't put the older one in a M4.

 

[SGT_Kramer]

And ak's still suck! If we used them there would be 50 modifications to it aswell. First one being to make the operators of AK's into smarter people!!

 

[JWG223]

yep. New newer is a hair shorter aslwell really like a hair and old can be replaced with new but not new old.. That why they still have 2 different numbers so if there is old stock laying around you don't put the older one in a M4.

Interesting, did not know!